DIY recipe with mostly natural ingredients - final help please


#1

Hello Folks,

I tried to create a recipe which gets most of the nutritions from “normal” ingredients. Please, no debate about that point…

Here we go: https://diy.soylent.com/recipes/marvs-mostly-naturally-meal

I am quite happy with the numbers I created, all nutritions are in the desired range, and the price is totally OK.
Just had to “cheat” with the manganese intake, because just the oats hit the UTL. But since I found that this number comes from a rather questionable study and it should be impossible to get a toxic manganese dose from normal food, I am fine with that.

Of course I still have to check how my blender can handle all this, and what it will taste like…

What I am not really happy about is the fact that I still had to add quite some supplement pills to get rid of the last flaws in the overview.
Not really sure if this was really nessecary, especially regarding the choline, sulfur and calcium. Never cared about those, ate much worse than this list, and I am still alive. Or did I just had a malnutrition all the time?

So, my questions to you guys:

Do you have an idea how to get rid of more supplements by adjustions of normal food?

Can you help me where to find the Information about the Omega 3 and 6 fats? These are still missing…

And any other comments, ideas, thoughts?

Thank you all…


#2

Ok, the major change I’d recommend is entirely getting rid of MSM. The 2 gram sulfur requirement only applies to SCAAs, and the 2 gram requirement is for the SCAAs (cysteine and methionine), not elemental sulfur. You’ll want to check through all of the ingredients with protein in and find out how much cysteine and methionine there is - there is no need for MSM.

Regarding omega 3 and omega 6, our ancestors ate a diet that had pretty close to a 1:1 ratio of these. Omega 3 has three different forms (at least that we can consume): ALA, EPA and DHA. Plant-based ingredients contain exclusively ALA, whilst animal sources contain EPA and DHA.

The following download gives information on EPA and DHA intake: http://www.goedomega3.com/index.php/files/download/304

Generally the recommendation for otherwise healthy individuals is to consume the equivalent of at least 500mg of EPA+DHA per day (no ratio is given, so you could have 400mg EPA and 100mg DHA, or vice versa, or some other combination). ALA can be converted into EPA and DHA, but generally at a low rate. When I was researching, I came across worst case scenario conversion rates of 8% of ALA converted to EPA and 0.5% converted to DHA. Now, those who consume little or no DHA+EPA are known to convert at a higher rate, but for the sake of simplicity, we’ll take that worst case scenario for calculations so you know what to aim for if you just use ALA to guarantee meeting that requirement:

Combined percentage of ALA conversion to EPA or DHA is 8.5%.
You need 500mg of EPA+DHA.
Therefore ALA consumption should be (100/8.5)*500 which is equal to 5882.35mg or just over 5.88 grams.

If you’re going the ALA route, the best source are flaxseeds or chia seeds - I personally prefer flaxseeds. The best option is to grind them as and when you need them, or else the omega 3 is prone to rancidity. Flaxseed oil also has this issue.

The easier route, if you’re not vegan, would be fish oil capsules or fish oil. I personally use capsules (taking 2 per day) from here: https://www.selecthealthy.com/omega-3-fish-oil-1000mg.html
When I’m not doing keto, I generally take two of these capsules per day (for ~600mg of DHA+EPA) and ~25 grams of ground flaxseeds for ~5.7 grams of ALA.

If you are vegan but want to take in some DHA+EPA directly, you’ll want to look into algae oil capsules, such as those found here: https://www.vegetology.co.uk/products/opti3

Omega 6 is easier, and is very often overeaten. In too high a quantity, it is pro-inflammatory, so I generally aim to minimise it - certainly keeping omega 3 to omega 6 ratio between 1:1 and 1:2.3. You can get omega 6 from nuts, seeds, and sunflower oil, to name but a few. Looking up the following page may help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratio_of_fatty_acids_in_different_foods

Choline pills can be replaced by choline bitartrate powder.

Calcium + vitamin D pill can be replaced with something like bone meal and an increase in your vitamin D powder.

I hope that helps :slight_smile:

EDIT: Further on the topic of omega 3 and 6, Huel actually have a page on this very topic: https://huel.com/pages/guide-to-epa-and-dha


#3

Whoa, thanks for your help, even so I (still) truggle to understand every part of it.

Good news regarding the sulfur, so the MSM gets kicked out. I noticed that lots of people have high sulfur ammounts in their protein powders, but couldn’t find the information on mine. I contacted the custumer service and still wait for the reply.

Regarding the Omega 3, I definately planned to add flax seeds, freshly grinded. As soon as I find out about the 3/6 ratio of my ingredients I will balance these, resulting in somewhat near 1:2 total Ratio.

Bone meal? No way. Then I rather stick to the pill.

The last Vitamin D pill is actually just a placeholder to give the formula the 100%. The ammount in it now is already 200% of the dose suggested by German regulations, and I generally prefer getting it from sunlight.

And choline pills and powder: Yeah, I could save a few cents here. But weighting 0,5gramms is a kind of hassle, the pills are more convenient.

So the Trial goes on, thanks again…


#4

So, made some further adjustments to the recipe.

As discussed, the MSM got kicked out.

Futhermore I replaced some of the oats with millet. On the one hand this sould add another carb source, since variety is always welcome. On the other hand I hope this will make the shake less “gluey” as the oats tend to do.

Biggest change is probably that I replaced the fresh fruits with dried ones. One reason is convenience, but more important is that I can now grind my shake dry and just mix it with water before drinking.
The old recipe with lots of oats and bananas got a big glue after a few hours sitting, and since you had to prepare the daily ratio at once…

This made the formula more expensive, but the price is still allright for me.

So, now I have to wait for my orders, and check if my kitchen grinder can handle this stuff…


#5

Can you give an honest review of Joylent Vegan’s nutrition?


#6

I haven’t checked in depth before, and am currently on my way back home from a different city. Depending on when I get back, I’ll either post my thoughts tonight or tomorrow, but certainly within 24 hours (so long as I don’t forget). The important thing for US/Canadian citizens to remember is that Joylent’s products use the EU RDAs, not the US ones. There are fairly substantial differences between the two.

I have a table composed with the various different requirements on my site which will allow you to compare: http://www.genesisfoodsolutions.com/vitamin-mix-ingredients

Alternatively to see a breakdown of the DVs into the old and the new, with the rest of the information (and some footnotes), see here:

Aside from those differences (between the old DV values and the values in Joylent), I’ll need to look when I’m home.


#7

Thank you! I’m of EU descent so my unique genetics must match EU RDIs!!


#8

Possibly, though environmental factors are also important. Notably, the EU RDAs are never higher than both the old US Daily Values and the DRIs, and rarely exceed just the new DVs alone, which is part of the reason I believe they are quite inadequate.


#9

Ok, so yeah, as I previously mentioned, there are a lot of nutrients in Joylent below the US RDA. Bearing in mind the deficiency rates, the most important one in my mind is vitamin D. A day’s worth of Joylent vegan provides 300 I.U. of vitamin D, whilst Soylent provides 400 I.U. which many believe is too low in itself. Now notably, Joylent use vegan D3 whilst Soylent use D2, and D3 is a more bioavailable form, but in my opinion, 300 I.U. is way too little anyway. There are other things, such as calcium, which stick to the 800mg recommended intake from the EU. The US recommendations are currently 1000mg (DRI for people aged 19-50), 1200mg (DRI for those aged 51+), and 1300mg (DV for anyone aged 4 and above). Other nutrients, such as vitamin K, share a similar story, but are less important than electrolytes (at least in my opinion). Additionally, despite being a fair way above the RDA, I have never been keen on Joylent’s tendency to use magnesium oxide as a critical component of the magnesium content (the rest only coming from oats) due to its very low bioavailability. However, I would imagine if there had been reports of magnesium deficiency from those on 100% Joylent, we would have heard about it by now, so perhaps this is less of an issue than it seems to me (I personally require ~600mg of a highly bioavailable magnesium form due to genetic reasons, so this may be a bigger deal for me than for others). Anyway, this is all micronutrient stuff, easiest way to check that is to compare with the sheets I linked above, and if I continue for too long, this post will be too long. In short though, I’m certainly not blown away by either the quantities or qualities of the micronutrients included.

Regarding macronutrients, I like that Joylent has more protein than Soylent, but dislike that it has less fat and more carbs. The protein content makes it more beneficial for those doing light to moderate workouts (whilst perhaps those doing a more intense routine may still wish to supplement a little). However the lower fat content means it may keep you satiated for a shorter time period. With that said, from my experience of the non-vegan form of Joylent, satiation wasn’t an issue at all, and it was actually too filling for me at times (possibly due to the high oat content).

There are 27 grams of polyunsaturated fats per day (with, from what I can see, no breakdown of the omega 3 to omega 6 ratio), which I think is too much. My thoughts on this are compounded by the fact that, based on the order of ingredients, omega 6 seems to be far more prevalent than omega 3, which is only majorly contributed to by the second least abundant ingredient. Omega 6 is known to be quite pro-inflammatory in anything more than modest amounts, and judging by the ingredient order, I highly suspect the omega 3 to omega 6 ratio does not fall even close to the currently thought to be optimal range of 1:1 to 1:2.3. Again, I can’t say that point with certainty, but bearing in mind oats (the most prevalent ingredient) have a ratio of ~1:22 and soy flour, another ingredient higher than flaxseed in quantity, has a ratio of ~1:7.5, and both of these are in higher quantities than flaxseed (~3.9:1), it seems extremely likely we’re looking at a ratio of at least 1:5, and very possibly 1:10 or even worse. This really isn’t ideal. The omega 3 is also all in the ALA form, as there is no algae present (to my knowledge the only vegan source of DHA and EPA), which means depending on how bad the ratio is and your conversion rate, you may not get the equivalent of the recommended intake of 500mg of EPA+DHA, but I can’t say that with certainty simply because the exact ratio is unknown. If the ratio is ~1:5, it’s pretty likely you’d reach that intake; if it’s ~1:10, you probably wouldn’t. I also think that the monounsaturated fat content could be fair bit higher (around double its current level of 12.9 grams per day), but this is less important. It’s difficult to compare this to Soylent, as we don’t know an exact omega 3 to omega 6 ratio. Soylent has a ratio of ~1:6.5, which is pretty bad (especially when the amount of omega 3 is so low), but I can’t say if Joylent is better or worse. It’s likely Joylent contains more omega 3, due to the higher PUFA content, but it may also contain a lot more omega 6. Soylent’s monounsaturated fat content is high - I know foodalyzer say it may be too high, but personally I see no harm in it. Monounsaturated fat and saturated fat (contrary to what a lot of people think due to outdated science) are the two macronutrients you can consume in pretty much any quantity with no negative effect other than those associated with weight gain.

Joylent is another product that utilises large amounts of cheap maltodextrin in order to achieve its low price. However, relative to Soylent, which uses tapioca maltodextrin, which is relatively low in GI (~85), Joylent makes no mention of their source. Given the quality of other ingredients in Joylent, and the overall cost of the product, it is reasonable to assume that they use one of the lower quality sources, such as corn maltodextrin (GI ~110+). It’s also notable that Joylent likely contains more maltodextrin than Soylent. As a rough approximation, Soylent 1.6 contains at most 84 grams of maltodextrin per day (I worked this out by checking the nutrition facts http://files.soylent.com/pdf/soylent-nutrition-facts-1-6-en.pdf and subtracting the added sugar and fibre contents from the total carbs, and multiplying by 4). This amount is by no means ideal, but if I recall correctly, RL said their GI was either at the upper end of low, or the lower end of medium, so this isn’t too much of an issue. Again, there is no note of Joylent’s exact breakdown, but we can approximate from their ingredients information (though take this with a pinch of salt of course). Joylent Vegan has 258 grams of carbs per day. In the EU, carbs are listed as net carbs, so we need to make deductions for fibre. The ingredients that will contribute at least partially to this, in order of mass, are as follows:

Oatmeal: ~56g of net carbs per 100 grams (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5708/2)
Joylent vitamix: roughly ~95g of net carbs per 100 grams due to micronutrients taking up very little mass.
Soy flour: ~25.6g of net carbs per 100 grams (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/legumes-and-legume-products/4382/2)
Protein blend of soy, rice and hemp: difficult to be precise due to the ratios not being known, so we’ll take soy protein concentrate and apply it to the entire recipe - ~20g of net carbs per 100 grams (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/legumes-and-legume-products/4463/2)
Ground flaxseed: ~1.6g of net carbs per 100 grams (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/nut-and-seed-products/3163/2)

From here, calculations are a little difficult, but we can use approximate protein amounts to work out a range of ratios. This leaves us with:

Oatmeal: ~56g of net carbs per 100 grams, ~16.9g of protein per 100 grams.
Joylent vitamix:~95g of net carbs per 100 grams, ~0g of protein per 100 grams.
Soy flour: ~25.5g of net carbs per 100 grams, ~34.5g of protein per 100 grams.
Protein blend of soy, rice and hemp: ~20g of net carbs per 100 grams, ~70g of protein per 100 grams.
Ground flaxseed: ~1.6g of net carbs per 100 grams, ~18.3g of protein per 100 grams.

In total, Joylent Vegan has 135 grams of protein and 258 grams of carbs per day. As a very rough approximation then, based on that and the omega 3 and 6 levels, I’d suggest we’re looking at around the following:

220 grams of oatmeal (contributing 123.2g of net carbs, 37.18g of protein, 244.2mg of omega 3, 5.3328g of omega 6 (total of 5.5577g of PUFA).
110 grams of vitamix (contributing 104.5g of net carbs (all maltodextrin).
100 grams of soy flour (contributing 25.6g of net carbs, 34.5g of protein, 1378mg of omega 3, 10.281g of omega 6 (total of 11.659g of PUFA).
80 grams of protein blend (contributing 16g of net carbs, 56g of protein, omega information here is unfortunately lacking).
10 grams of ground flaxseed (contributing 0.267g of net carbs, 1.88g of protein 2281.3mg of omega 3, 591.1mg of omega 6 (total of 2.8274g of PUFA).

This comes to a total of 520 grams, whilst a bag of Joylent Vegan is 528 grams. Given we didn’t include emulsifiers, flavouring or sweeteners, this is reasonably close.

In total this gives us:
~269.6g of net carbs (but protein blend likely won’t have as much as assumed).
~129.6g of protein (a little under but a reasonable approximation).
~20g of PUFA plus however much is in the protein blend (and as a soy concentrate is used, this is likely a decent amount). Of this, only ~3.9g is omega 3, whilst the rest will be omega 6. This suggests an overall omega 3 to omega 6 ratio of ~1:7, assuming my numbers above are correct. Some people with particularly poor ALA conversion may not reach the 500mg DHA + EPA target, but most should. Again though, a lot of this is assuming my approximate numbers are above are accurate - they are likely at least a little out.

It also gives ~35.65g of fibre (plus any included in the protein powder), whilst Joylent Vegan contains between 37.5g and 40.5g depending on rounding. I’d say this is reasonably close for an approximation.

In short, Joylent will contain roughly 15-20% more maltodextrin than Soylent, and it is likely of a lower quality. This will increase the severity of any blood sugar crashes. A graph demonstrating Joylent’s effect on blood sugar relative to another brand can be seen here: https://discuss.huel.com/t/see-my-glucose-variation-in-my-blood-after-eating-joylent-and-huel/199

Finally, as mentioned above, Joylent contains soy flour and soy concentrate in reasonably high amounts. Though in my opinion there is no issue with this for those who don’t have an intolerance or allergy, I know many people wish to minimise soy intake regardless. For those people, Joylent would not be appropriate.

That’s about all I can say about it for now really. If it’s anything like normal Joylent, I would purchase a little xanthan gum and add maybe 0.3-0.5g per meal to minimise settling of the oats.

If you have any questions, let me know.